Discussion:
another sign of the apocalypse?
(too old to reply)
Boston Blackie
2004-04-17 18:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Teens get music but not message in Christian music piracy

April 16, 2004

By SUSAN HOGAN/ALBACH / The Dallas Morning News

Christian teens are stealing Jesus music.

They're doing it through Internet downloads and CD burnings at nearly
the same rate as secular music is being pirated by non-Christians,
according to a new study done for the Gospel Music Association.

The findings were a jolt to many in the evangelical music industry, who
expected churchgoing teens to be mindful of the Commandment, "Thou shalt
not steal."

"I'm surprised and disappointed that the behavior isn't that ardently
different between Christians and non-Christians," said John Styll,
president of the Gospel Music Association, the leading trade group for
evangelical music.

But not everybody thinks the pirating is a bad thing. After all, some
church leaders say, isn't getting the Gospel out more important than
getting paid? How can it be wrong if it saves souls?

"That's convoluted logic," said Barry Landis, president of Word
Records, a major Christian label. "You would never steal Bibles to give
them away. You shouldn't steal Christian music to give away either."

Christian music is in the spotlight next week as artists, fans and
vendors converge in Nashville, Tenn., for Gospel Music Week. The
festivities are a backdrop to the April 28 Dove Awards, the industry's
equivalent of the Grammys.

Last year, sales of Christian albums fell by 5.2 percent, to just over
47 million. The major labels cut their workforce by 10 percent, Mr.
Styll said. He blames the economy, downloads and CD burnings.

Even with the dip in sales, Christian music is big business. Last year,
its artists sold 68 CDs for every 100 in country music. The $800 million
in sales topped that of classical music and jazz combined ­ and at least
as much money was generated in merchandise and concert tickets, Mr.
Styll said.

Musicians say the piracy issue is particularly thorny for them to
broach. Many fear being seen as greedy, the backlash faced by the heavy
metal band Metallica when it sued Napster, once the most popular
file-sharing software system.

"We can't be like Christina Aguilera and get all attitudy," said Jaci
Velasquez, a platinum-selling singer originally from Texas. "We're
supposed to be like Christ and turn the other cheek."

Panheads, the name given to fans of the Christian band, Skillet,
routinely ask for autographs of the group's CDs. After one concert, a
fan raved about how he had all of Skillet's music and that it had
changed his life.

"Then he asked me to sign the CDs and they were all burned from a
computer," said band member John Cooper. "I always sign because I don't
want to be rude. But sometimes I'm tempted to say, 'Man, you've got to
buy it.' "

Like their secular counterparts, Christian music executives say digital
music theft is hurting sales. But they've kept a low profile in the war
being waged by the Recording Industry Association of America against
piracy ­ a battle that includes more than 1,000 suits against illegal
downloaders. (The music industry said sales have improved in the first
quarter of this year, in part because of its suits.)

Mainstream music sees piracy as purely as a legal issue, Mr. Styll
said. The Christian industry frames the issue differently, even though
its major labels are owned by mainstream companies.

"We take it further and say it's a moral issue," he said. "But we're
not going to sue people. It just doesn't seem right. And nobody really
has the will to do it."

The industry is grappling with how to discourage piracy.

"It's going to take an enormous educational effort," said Mr. Landis of
Word Records. "Maybe we've missed this generation. We all know they
shouldn't take the music. We all know they do. How do you put toothpaste
back in the tube?"

Warning labels about copyright laws ­ part of a "do unto others"
strategy ­ have begun appearing on some Christian CDs. But research
shows the task of changing minds, much less hearts, is Herculean.

Many Christian teens simply don't think they're stealing.

Scott Ferguson, a junior at Fort Worth Christian Academy, said he has
never burned a CD but has received them as birthday gifts. He considers
burning CDs morally wrong, but he said many of his buddies don't.

"If a CD comes out and you like a couple of songs, they'll burn it for
you," he said. "It's what friends kind of do for one another. It doesn't
take long and it's easy. That's how they look at it."

Others say they do it for religious reasons.

"A lot of students think it's, like, a cheap way to witness to the
Gospel," said Scott Flagg, 22, who belongs to the Christian fraternity
Beta Upsilon Chi at the University of North Texas. "They go out and buy
a CD, then burn several copies to give away."

Youth minister Scott Burks said he regularly confronts youths at
Pantego Bible Church in Fort Worth about the issue. But they have a hard
time understanding how they could be stealing when the music is readily
available on the Internet.

"They'll literally say, 'Really? Come on.' " he said. "They're
surprised. But when I'm able to help them understand the truth behind
it, a student is typically remorseful."

Robert Noland, an executive with Student Discipleship Ministries in
Burleson, said the message must first reach Mom and Dad.

"Usually the parents don't know its wrong and think it's just something
all kids do," he said. "Or they do know and they think, 'What's the
harm?' "

Christian pollster George Barna recently completed a study on teens and
piracy for the Gospel Music Association. The study hasn't been made
public, but key findings were shared by Mr. Styll with The Dallas
Morning News.

He said the most alarming results showed that only 10 percent of
Christian teens considered music piracy to be morally wrong. Of those,
64 percent have engaged in downloading or CD burning anyway ­ virtually
the same percentage as non-Christians.

"A lot of these people don't see it as any more wrong than speeding,"
he said. "I would say to you that speeding is wrong. But I would also
admit that I have probably violated that law today."

Online at:
http://www.wcnc.com/sharedcontent/features/printwire/041604cccaentdownloa
d.131c7623a.html
Max O.
2004-04-17 19:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Blackie
Teens get music but not message in Christian music piracy
April 16, 2004
By SUSAN HOGAN/ALBACH / The Dallas Morning News
Christian teens are stealing Jesus music.
They're doing it through Internet downloads and CD burnings at nearly
the same rate as secular music is being pirated by non-Christians,
according to a new study done for the Gospel Music Association.
The findings were a jolt to many in the evangelical music industry, who
expected churchgoing teens to be mindful of the Commandment, "Thou shalt
not steal."
"I'm surprised and disappointed that the behavior isn't that ardently
different between Christians and non-Christians," said John Styll,
president of the Gospel Music Association, the leading trade group for
evangelical music.
But not everybody thinks the pirating is a bad thing. After all, some
church leaders say, isn't getting the Gospel out more important than
getting paid? How can it be wrong if it saves souls?
"That's convoluted logic," said Barry Landis, president of Word
Records, a major Christian label. "You would never steal Bibles to give
them away. You shouldn't steal Christian music to give away either."
Christian music is in the spotlight next week as artists, fans and
vendors converge in Nashville, Tenn., for Gospel Music Week. The
festivities are a backdrop to the April 28 Dove Awards, the industry's
equivalent of the Grammys.
Last year, sales of Christian albums fell by 5.2 percent, to just over
47 million. The major labels cut their workforce by 10 percent, Mr.
Styll said. He blames the economy, downloads and CD burnings.
Even with the dip in sales, Christian music is big business. Last year,
its artists sold 68 CDs for every 100 in country music. The $800 million
in sales topped that of classical music and jazz combined ­ and at least
as much money was generated in merchandise and concert tickets, Mr.
Styll said.
Musicians say the piracy issue is particularly thorny for them to
broach. Many fear being seen as greedy, the backlash faced by the heavy
metal band Metallica when it sued Napster, once the most popular
file-sharing software system.
"We can't be like Christina Aguilera and get all attitudy," said Jaci
Velasquez, a platinum-selling singer originally from Texas. "We're
supposed to be like Christ and turn the other cheek."
Panheads, the name given to fans of the Christian band, Skillet,
routinely ask for autographs of the group's CDs. After one concert, a
fan raved about how he had all of Skillet's music and that it had
changed his life.
"Then he asked me to sign the CDs and they were all burned from a
computer," said band member John Cooper. "I always sign because I don't
want to be rude. But sometimes I'm tempted to say, 'Man, you've got to
buy it.' "
Like their secular counterparts, Christian music executives say digital
music theft is hurting sales. But they've kept a low profile in the war
being waged by the Recording Industry Association of America against
piracy ­ a battle that includes more than 1,000 suits against illegal
downloaders. (The music industry said sales have improved in the first
quarter of this year, in part because of its suits.)
Mainstream music sees piracy as purely as a legal issue, Mr. Styll
said. The Christian industry frames the issue differently, even though
its major labels are owned by mainstream companies.
"We take it further and say it's a moral issue," he said. "But we're
not going to sue people. It just doesn't seem right. And nobody really
has the will to do it."
The industry is grappling with how to discourage piracy.
"It's going to take an enormous educational effort," said Mr. Landis of
Word Records. "Maybe we've missed this generation. We all know they
shouldn't take the music. We all know they do. How do you put toothpaste
back in the tube?"
Warning labels about copyright laws ­ part of a "do unto others"
strategy ­ have begun appearing on some Christian CDs. But research
shows the task of changing minds, much less hearts, is Herculean.
Many Christian teens simply don't think they're stealing.
Scott Ferguson, a junior at Fort Worth Christian Academy, said he has
never burned a CD but has received them as birthday gifts. He considers
burning CDs morally wrong, but he said many of his buddies don't.
"If a CD comes out and you like a couple of songs, they'll burn it for
you," he said. "It's what friends kind of do for one another. It doesn't
take long and it's easy. That's how they look at it."
Others say they do it for religious reasons.
"A lot of students think it's, like, a cheap way to witness to the
Gospel," said Scott Flagg, 22, who belongs to the Christian fraternity
Beta Upsilon Chi at the University of North Texas. "They go out and buy
a CD, then burn several copies to give away."
Youth minister Scott Burks said he regularly confronts youths at
Pantego Bible Church in Fort Worth about the issue. But they have a hard
time understanding how they could be stealing when the music is readily
available on the Internet.
"They'll literally say, 'Really? Come on.' " he said. "They're
surprised. But when I'm able to help them understand the truth behind
it, a student is typically remorseful."
Robert Noland, an executive with Student Discipleship Ministries in
Burleson, said the message must first reach Mom and Dad.
"Usually the parents don't know its wrong and think it's just something
all kids do," he said. "Or they do know and they think, 'What's the
harm?' "
Christian pollster George Barna recently completed a study on teens and
piracy for the Gospel Music Association. The study hasn't been made
public, but key findings were shared by Mr. Styll with The Dallas
Morning News.
He said the most alarming results showed that only 10 percent of
Christian teens considered music piracy to be morally wrong. Of those,
64 percent have engaged in downloading or CD burning anyway ­ virtually
the same percentage as non-Christians.
"A lot of these people don't see it as any more wrong than speeding,"
he said. "I would say to you that speeding is wrong. But I would also
admit that I have probably violated that law today."
http://www.wcnc.com/sharedcontent/features/printwire/041604cccaentdownloa
d.131c7623a.html
I have no sympathy for the "Christian" music industry whatsoever. Self
identifying as wholesome "Christian" anything makes me want to yak.
"Christian" values, "Christian" dance club, "Christian" golf clubs, when
does it all end? Christian has become a generic adjective that basically
means "wholesome" and not what it originally was intended to convey.

It's the sign of a seperatist movement if you ask me, that waters down
its own faith and this downloading is just the tip of the hypocrisy iceberg.

BTW

I'm listening to Christian music right now, notice the lack of Quotes:
J.S. Bach's Mass in B Minor. The CD probably would combust if brought
into the same room with an Amy Grant disc.

Some folks find the Divine in all music, though I'd highly recommend
John Coltrane as a starting point.

Christian Music Industry? Bah.
Richard Thomas
2004-04-18 04:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max O.
I have no sympathy for the "Christian" music industry whatsoever. Self
identifying as wholesome "Christian" anything makes me want to yak.
"Christian" values, "Christian" dance club, "Christian" golf clubs, when
does it all end? Christian has become a generic adjective that basically
means "wholesome" and not what it originally was intended to convey.
It's the sign of a seperatist movement if you ask me, that waters down
its own faith and this downloading is just the tip of the hypocrisy iceberg.
BTW
J.S. Bach's Mass in B Minor. The CD probably would combust if brought
into the same room with an Amy Grant disc.
Some folks find the Divine in all music, though I'd highly recommend
John Coltrane as a starting point.
Christian Music Industry? Bah.
I am no big fan of the Christian movement, nor the RIAA in general but
your suggestion that the Christian movement is somehow less deserving
of the protection of law than others speaks volumes about your
attitude.

Rich
Max O.
2004-04-18 05:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
your suggestion that the Christian movement is somehow less deserving
of the protection of law than others speaks volumes about your
attitude.
Rich
Document those volumes please. Footnotes always welcome.
Richard Thomas
2004-04-18 15:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max O.
Post by Richard Thomas
your suggestion that the Christian movement is somehow less deserving
of the protection of law than others speaks volumes about your
attitude.
Rich
Document those volumes please. Footnotes always welcome.
It's an attitude that some, those some being dependant on your
particular point of view of course, are less somehow less deserving of
the protection of law than others. It's exactly the same attitiude
that allows some to dismiss violent attacks on homosexuals or race
based attacks.

Everyone is deserving of the protection of law equally. When you
single out a group as being exempt from that, even though I may not be
a member of that group, you are doing me a disfavor.

Rich
Faye
2004-04-17 19:17:47 UTC
Permalink
When I saw thread subject, I thought your post would be about the killing of
the Hamas leader. : )

Faye
Brown.Recluse
2004-04-17 19:27:19 UTC
Permalink
You equate the killing of a Hamas leader with the end of the world?
They mean that much to you? : )



In article
Post by Faye
When I saw thread subject, I thought your post would be about the killing of
the Hamas leader. : )
Faye
Faye
2004-04-17 20:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brown.Recluse
You equate the killing of a Hamas leader with the end of the world?
They mean that much to you? : )
To me, not hardly, BR : )

They mean that much to them over there.

Faye
Brown.Recluse
2004-04-17 21:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Either way, I wonder how many applicants they are getting for the newly
created open position?

In article
Post by Faye
Post by Brown.Recluse
You equate the killing of a Hamas leader with the end of the world?
They mean that much to you? : )
To me, not hardly, BR : )
They mean that much to them over there.
Faye
Max O.
2004-04-17 22:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brown.Recluse
Either way, I wonder how many applicants they are getting for the newly
created open position?
it's more of a nomination process, I believe.
Jeffraham Prestonian
2004-04-17 19:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Blackie
Christian teens are stealing Jesus music.
That doesn't surprise me at all. Back in Morehead,
KY, I had some friends who worked in a small
bookstore, with about 50% of the floorspace
dedicated to Christian bookstore items, including
bibles. Bibles were their #1 most-stolen item... and
this place also carried all these Dungeons & Dragons
books and accessories, as well (on the other side
of the store).
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
Richard Thomas
2004-04-18 04:58:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 14:37:26 -0500, "Jeffraham Prestonian"
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
Post by Boston Blackie
Christian teens are stealing Jesus music.
That doesn't surprise me at all. Back in Morehead,
KY, I had some friends who worked in a small
bookstore, with about 50% of the floorspace
dedicated to Christian bookstore items, including
bibles. Bibles were their #1 most-stolen item... and
this place also carried all these Dungeons & Dragons
books and accessories, as well (on the other side
of the store).
You prove the point you're trying to argue againt. To take a Christian
viewpoint, who would be more in need of biblical guidance than a
sinner?

Rich
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
Jeffraham Prestonian
2004-04-18 05:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
You prove the point you're trying to argue againt. To take a Christian
viewpoint, who would be more in need of biblical guidance than a
sinner?
Beg pardon? Where did I say a sinner needed
less guidance? I said nothing about who needed
anything more than someone else.

What I said was that I was unsurprised to hear
that kids were stealing Christian music downloads.
And that is accurate -- I am not surprised.
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
Richard Thomas
2004-04-18 05:08:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:08:54 -0500, "Jeffraham Prestonian"
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
Post by Richard Thomas
You prove the point you're trying to argue againt. To take a Christian
viewpoint, who would be more in need of biblical guidance than a
sinner?
Beg pardon? Where did I say a sinner needed
less guidance? I said nothing about who needed
anything more than someone else.
What I said was that I was unsurprised to hear
that kids were stealing Christian music downloads.
And that is accurate -- I am not surprised.
Your inferrence was that Christians are more criminally minded. I
merely countered that a Christian could argue that (in your example)
it was the other way around, that those who were criminals could be
more likely seeking guidance.

FWIW, I don't believe my proposed counter for a second so please don't
bother asking me to defend it.

Rich
Jeffraham Prestonian
2004-04-18 05:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
Your inferrence was that Christians are more criminally minded.
No, I think you misunderstood me completely.
I said nothing about the people stealing the bibles;
I said only that bibles WERE the most-stolen item.
I couldn't -- wouldn't -- fathom a guess as to the
the theives' motives. I hope it was poor folks,
going to see a loved one in the hospital. The owner
of the store would have likely given them a bible,
had they asked, anyway. He was a super nice guy.
Post by Richard Thomas
I
merely countered that a Christian could argue that (in your example)
it was the other way around, that those who were criminals could be
more likely seeking guidance.
That would be great, fantastic and A-OK in
my book.
Post by Richard Thomas
FWIW, I don't believe my proposed counter for a second so please don't
bother asking me to defend it.
I won't. :) I think you misunderstood what I
was saying originally.
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
Richard Thomas
2004-04-18 15:45:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:31:10 -0500, "Jeffraham Prestonian"
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
No, I think you misunderstood me completely.
I said nothing about the people stealing the bibles;
I said only that bibles WERE the most-stolen item.
I couldn't -- wouldn't -- fathom a guess as to the
the theives' motives. I hope it was poor folks,
Christian teens are stealing Jesus music.
That doesn't surprise me at all. Back in Morehead,
KY, I had some friends who worked in a small
bookstore, ...

Could you explain the thread that links these two statements? The
former quite explicitly refers to Christian teens, not the general
theft (actually copyright infringement) of Jesus music. The obvious
link is that Christians are happy to hypocritically steal stuff that
relates to their religion (which, actually is something I can believe.
Christianity is a hotbed of hypocrisy). I was just pointing out that
the one does not necessarily back up the other. (I'm contrary like
that).

Rich
Jeffraham Prestonian
2004-04-18 16:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
Could you explain the thread that links these two statements? The
former quite explicitly refers to Christian teens, not the general
theft (actually copyright infringement) of Jesus music.
Sure. The article's author presumes that it is
Christian teens doing the stealing -- that's not
my presumption. The fact that religious items
(in this case, Christian) are stolen does not
surprise me, and I gave the bookstore account
as an example of my experiences in the matter.
Post by Richard Thomas
The obvious
link is that Christians are happy to hypocritically steal stuff that
relates to their religion (which, actually is something I can believe.
Christianity is a hotbed of hypocrisy).
That may be obvious to you, but that isn't what
I was saying.
Post by Richard Thomas
I was just pointing out that
the one does not necessarily back up the other. (I'm contrary like
that).
I think you've saved us from yet another
strawman. ;)
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
jakdedert
2004-04-18 20:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
Post by Richard Thomas
Could you explain the thread that links these two statements? The
former quite explicitly refers to Christian teens, not the general
theft (actually copyright infringement) of Jesus music.
Sure. The article's author presumes that it is
Christian teens doing the stealing -- that's not
my presumption. The fact that religious items
(in this case, Christian) are stolen does not
surprise me, and I gave the bookstore account
as an example of my experiences in the matter.
Post by Richard Thomas
The obvious
link is that Christians are happy to hypocritically steal stuff that
relates to their religion (which, actually is something I can
believe. Christianity is a hotbed of hypocrisy).
That may be obvious to you, but that isn't what
I was saying.
Post by Richard Thomas
I was just pointing out that
the one does not necessarily back up the other. (I'm contrary like
that).
I think you've saved us from yet another
strawman. ;)
I think I could put it a bit more succinctly (a feat for me, to be sure).
The point of the OP, and most everything that's come since, was that:
Christian kids are no less likely to steal than any other. This surprised
some people who believed that the the Christian teachings and belief system
would make them immune to dishonesty.

Jeff responded that--based on his life experience--he was not surprised that
was not the case.

Did I type that slowly enough?

jak
Richard Thomas
2004-04-19 00:46:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:11:05 -0500, "Jeffraham Prestonian"
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
That may be obvious to you, but that isn't what
I was saying.
OK. glad to have it cleared up.
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
I think you've saved us from yet another
strawman. ;)
Phew...

Rich
Richard Thomas
2004-04-18 04:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Blackie
Christian teens are stealing Jesus music.
Just to point out that copyright infringement is not stealing/theft.
Morally, they may or may not be equivalent but they are different
offences and carry different penalties.

Rich
rayrat
2004-04-18 16:01:30 UTC
Permalink
As someone who has been involved with church music work, let me just
say that wholesale copying of choral music and other sheet music is
rampant and we shouldn't be surprised that kids are illegally
downloading music. It's all wrong and all definitely NON-Christian.

Ray
Post by Boston Blackie
Teens get music but not message in Christian music piracy
April 16, 2004
By SUSAN HOGAN/ALBACH / The Dallas Morning News
Christian teens are stealing Jesus music.
They're doing it through Internet downloads and CD burnings at nearly
the same rate as secular music is being pirated by non-Christians,
according to a new study done for the Gospel Music Association.
The findings were a jolt to many in the evangelical music industry, who
expected churchgoing teens to be mindful of the Commandment, "Thou shalt
not steal."
"I'm surprised and disappointed that the behavior isn't that ardently
different between Christians and non-Christians," said John Styll,
president of the Gospel Music Association, the leading trade group for
evangelical music.
But not everybody thinks the pirating is a bad thing. After all, some
church leaders say, isn't getting the Gospel out more important than
getting paid? How can it be wrong if it saves souls?
"That's convoluted logic," said Barry Landis, president of Word
Records, a major Christian label. "You would never steal Bibles to give
them away. You shouldn't steal Christian music to give away either."
Christian music is in the spotlight next week as artists, fans and
vendors converge in Nashville, Tenn., for Gospel Music Week. The
festivities are a backdrop to the April 28 Dove Awards, the industry's
equivalent of the Grammys.
Last year, sales of Christian albums fell by 5.2 percent, to just over
47 million. The major labels cut their workforce by 10 percent, Mr.
Styll said. He blames the economy, downloads and CD burnings.
Even with the dip in sales, Christian music is big business. Last year,
its artists sold 68 CDs for every 100 in country music. The $800 million
in sales topped that of classical music and jazz combined ­ and at least
as much money was generated in merchandise and concert tickets, Mr.
Styll said.
Musicians say the piracy issue is particularly thorny for them to
broach. Many fear being seen as greedy, the backlash faced by the heavy
metal band Metallica when it sued Napster, once the most popular
file-sharing software system.
"We can't be like Christina Aguilera and get all attitudy," said Jaci
Velasquez, a platinum-selling singer originally from Texas. "We're
supposed to be like Christ and turn the other cheek."
Panheads, the name given to fans of the Christian band, Skillet,
routinely ask for autographs of the group's CDs. After one concert, a
fan raved about how he had all of Skillet's music and that it had
changed his life.
"Then he asked me to sign the CDs and they were all burned from a
computer," said band member John Cooper. "I always sign because I don't
want to be rude. But sometimes I'm tempted to say, 'Man, you've got to
buy it.' "
Like their secular counterparts, Christian music executives say digital
music theft is hurting sales. But they've kept a low profile in the war
being waged by the Recording Industry Association of America against
piracy ­ a battle that includes more than 1,000 suits against illegal
downloaders. (The music industry said sales have improved in the first
quarter of this year, in part because of its suits.)
Mainstream music sees piracy as purely as a legal issue, Mr. Styll
said. The Christian industry frames the issue differently, even though
its major labels are owned by mainstream companies.
"We take it further and say it's a moral issue," he said. "But we're
not going to sue people. It just doesn't seem right. And nobody really
has the will to do it."
The industry is grappling with how to discourage piracy.
"It's going to take an enormous educational effort," said Mr. Landis of
Word Records. "Maybe we've missed this generation. We all know they
shouldn't take the music. We all know they do. How do you put toothpaste
back in the tube?"
Warning labels about copyright laws ­ part of a "do unto others"
strategy ­ have begun appearing on some Christian CDs. But research
shows the task of changing minds, much less hearts, is Herculean.
Many Christian teens simply don't think they're stealing.
Scott Ferguson, a junior at Fort Worth Christian Academy, said he has
never burned a CD but has received them as birthday gifts. He considers
burning CDs morally wrong, but he said many of his buddies don't.
"If a CD comes out and you like a couple of songs, they'll burn it for
you," he said. "It's what friends kind of do for one another. It doesn't
take long and it's easy. That's how they look at it."
Others say they do it for religious reasons.
"A lot of students think it's, like, a cheap way to witness to the
Gospel," said Scott Flagg, 22, who belongs to the Christian fraternity
Beta Upsilon Chi at the University of North Texas. "They go out and buy
a CD, then burn several copies to give away."
Youth minister Scott Burks said he regularly confronts youths at
Pantego Bible Church in Fort Worth about the issue. But they have a hard
time understanding how they could be stealing when the music is readily
available on the Internet.
"They'll literally say, 'Really? Come on.' " he said. "They're
surprised. But when I'm able to help them understand the truth behind
it, a student is typically remorseful."
Robert Noland, an executive with Student Discipleship Ministries in
Burleson, said the message must first reach Mom and Dad.
"Usually the parents don't know its wrong and think it's just something
all kids do," he said. "Or they do know and they think, 'What's the
harm?' "
Christian pollster George Barna recently completed a study on teens and
piracy for the Gospel Music Association. The study hasn't been made
public, but key findings were shared by Mr. Styll with The Dallas
Morning News.
He said the most alarming results showed that only 10 percent of
Christian teens considered music piracy to be morally wrong. Of those,
64 percent have engaged in downloading or CD burning anyway ­ virtually
the same percentage as non-Christians.
"A lot of these people don't see it as any more wrong than speeding,"
he said. "I would say to you that speeding is wrong. But I would also
admit that I have probably violated that law today."
http://www.wcnc.com/sharedcontent/features/printwire/041604cccaentdownloa
d.131c7623a.html
Max O.
2004-04-18 16:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by rayrat
As someone who has been involved with church music work, let me just
say that wholesale copying of choral music and other sheet music is
rampant and we shouldn't be surprised that kids are illegally
downloading music. It's all wrong and all definitely NON-Christian.
Again, the overuse of the Christian word. Please define NON-Christian, since
to me it sounds like you're saying that downloading music might make you a
pan-theist or something horrible like that! :P

I fail to see the connection between copying sheet music and downloading.
Both are technically theft of course and involve music, but the pivotal
issue is the use of technology. I do think that copying sheet music that
has been painstakingly transcribed by one hard working individual, vs.
downloading some pop Jesus-la-la crap is a much more serious offence.
Richard Thomas
2004-04-19 01:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max O.
Both are technically theft
Both are technically not theft but copyright infringement.

Rich
rayrat
2004-04-19 14:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max O.
Post by rayrat
As someone who has been involved with church music work, let me just
say that wholesale copying of choral music and other sheet music is
rampant and we shouldn't be surprised that kids are illegally
downloading music. It's all wrong and all definitely NON-Christian.
Again, the overuse of the Christian word. Please define NON-Christian, since
to me it sounds like you're saying that downloading music might make you a
pan-theist or something horrible like that! :P
I fail to see the connection between copying sheet music and downloading.
Both are technically theft of course and involve music, but the pivotal
issue is the use of technology. I do think that copying sheet music that
has been painstakingly transcribed by one hard working individual, vs.
downloading some pop Jesus-la-la crap is a much more serious offence.
Are we not talking about Christian music? Hard to not use the word
Christian if that is the case :)

Downloading music without permission is theft, irregardless of the
genre. If I sent a technologically advanced robot into your house and
it took your money, would that be ok?

Ray
Max O.
2004-04-19 16:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by rayrat
Are we not talking about Christian music? Hard to not use the word
Christian if that is the case :)
Oh, I have a label, we just make "Good" music, therefore all of our music is
Good. Because we say it is and put our label on it which says "Good Music".
We also sponsor the "Good" music awards, where only the best of the "Good"
music is honored by the peer also creating "Good" music.

Ha! Rap is a style, R&B, Gospel, country, fado, calypso, rock: all of these
are styles of music. Christian music as the term is used today is simply a
form of self styling.
rayrat
2004-04-20 14:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max O.
Post by rayrat
Are we not talking about Christian music? Hard to not use the word
Christian if that is the case :)
Oh, I have a label, we just make "Good" music, therefore all of our music is
Good. Because we say it is and put our label on it which says "Good Music".
We also sponsor the "Good" music awards, where only the best of the "Good"
music is honored by the peer also creating "Good" music.
Ha! Rap is a style, R&B, Gospel, country, fado, calypso, rock: all of these
are styles of music. Christian music as the term is used today is simply a
form of self styling.
I'm not disagreeing with you on this, Max. I'm pretty disgusted with
contemporary Christian music myself.

Rayrat
Ktreemn
2004-04-23 01:02:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by rayrat
I'm pretty disgusted with
contemporary Christian music myself.
Rayrat
Most of it is junk. I dislike it's generally anemic character.

I especially dislike the notion described in these songs that says,
paraphrased, "I am nothing, I am unworthy, I can do nothing w/o God."

It denies every sense of self-determination.

Most of it is junk, which matches their advertising.

It *is* ironic that this style descends from Amy, who gives rise to this genre,
*and* my Levis~! hahahahahahaha

Her music is not only empassioned but also very intellectual .... far beyond
your abilities to comprehend. hahahahaha

Poor girl, She practically *had* to marry that "dirty filthy Vince Gill"~!
hahahahahaha

Particularly sad when you realize that she coulda had *ME*~!
Doncha think~!? : ) Lala
Richard Thomas
2004-04-19 01:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by rayrat
As someone who has been involved with church music work, let me just
say that wholesale copying of choral music and other sheet music is
rampant and we shouldn't be surprised that kids are illegally
downloading music. It's all wrong and all definitely NON-Christian.
Copyright came into being well after Christ made his teachings.
Copyright may be against the law but I don't see any real basis upon
which one could claim it was unchristian.
Post by rayrat
Ray
Rich "Blessed are the music makers for they will receive royalties
verily three score and ten years from date of publication"
rayrat
2004-04-19 14:33:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
Post by rayrat
As someone who has been involved with church music work, let me just
say that wholesale copying of choral music and other sheet music is
rampant and we shouldn't be surprised that kids are illegally
downloading music. It's all wrong and all definitely NON-Christian.
Copyright came into being well after Christ made his teachings.
Copyright may be against the law but I don't see any real basis upon
which one could claim it was unchristian.
Post by rayrat
Ray
Rich "Blessed are the music makers for they will receive royalties
verily three score and ten years from date of publication"
Thou shalt not steal.

Ray
Richard Thomas
2004-04-20 01:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by rayrat
Thou shalt not steal.
Copyright infringement is not stealing, it is copyright infringement.

Rich
Post by rayrat
Ray
Jeffraham Prestonian
2004-04-20 02:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
Post by rayrat
Thou shalt not steal.
Copyright infringement is not stealing, it is copyright infringement.
How does downloading music differ from, say,
tapping into cable TV for free?
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
Richard Thomas
2004-04-21 01:26:35 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:39:10 -0500, "Jeffraham Prestonian"
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
Post by Richard Thomas
Post by rayrat
Thou shalt not steal.
Copyright infringement is not stealing, it is copyright infringement.
How does downloading music differ from, say,
tapping into cable TV for free?
Legally, I believe they wrangle this because you must use a little bit
of the cable company's electricity as the signal into your T.V. Thus,
you are not stealing content, you are stealing electricity.

In a real and practical sense though, there is not much difference
other than you are not actually making a copy.

Rich
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
Jeffraham Prestonian
2004-04-22 05:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
Legally, I believe they wrangle this because you must use a little bit
of the cable company's electricity as the signal into your T.V. Thus,
you are not stealing content, you are stealing electricity.
IANAL, but I think you're mistaken on this. The
charge, as I have heard it described, is "theft of
service," and the service has nothing to do with
powering toothbrushes. Instead, it involves
taking entertainment from the considerable
efforts of a for-profit entity without paying for
it, and without their permission.
Post by Richard Thomas
In a real and practical sense though, there is not much difference
other than you are not actually making a copy.
What prevents someone from recording stolen
cable TV (and isn't that another plantiff's battle)?
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
Richard Thomas
2004-04-23 04:21:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:20:17 -0500, "Jeffraham Prestonian"
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
Post by Richard Thomas
Legally, I believe they wrangle this because you must use a little bit
of the cable company's electricity as the signal into your T.V. Thus,
you are not stealing content, you are stealing electricity.
IANAL, but I think you're mistaken on this. The
charge, as I have heard it described, is "theft of
service," and the service has nothing to do with
powering toothbrushes. Instead, it involves
taking entertainment from the considerable
efforts of a for-profit entity without paying for
it, and without their permission.
Maybe. I'll have to look into it a little. To be honest, the vagaries
of the cable companies haven't really interested me much, I've been
more interested in the ramifications of copying of digital (or even
analogue) information rather than "service theft" which would be more
akin (but not identical) to copying digital content than actual theft.
Too tired to think about it right now, will have to reconsider it
after a good night's sleep.
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
Post by Richard Thomas
In a real and practical sense though, there is not much difference
other than you are not actually making a copy.
What prevents someone from recording stolen
cable TV (and isn't that another plantiff's battle)?
Nothing. But that would be (potentially) a separate charge.

It's all become somewhat of a big mess, especially with the
abomination that *is* the DMCA and one needs to dig a little to get
past the content industry's propaganda to find the underlying truth
that ownership of physical property is fundamentally different to the
legislatively granted authority to control the copying of information.
The people who wrote the copyright laws knew this and there's even
some good quotes explaining exactly the reasons behind giving the
content creators this authority. It's not because there is any
fundamental right to control content you create but because it was
thought that allowing such control would benefit society.

Rich
Jeffraham Prestonian
2004-04-23 05:39:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
Maybe. I'll have to look into it a little. To be honest, the vagaries
of the cable companies haven't really interested me much, I've been
more interested in the ramifications of copying of digital (or even
analogue) information rather than "service theft" which would be more
akin (but not identical) to copying digital content than actual theft.
Too tired to think about it right now, will have to reconsider it
after a good night's sleep.
Let me know what you come up with; I like
this line of discussion.
--
Toucan
Be heard. Spread the word.
http://www.YouSaidit.org
An experiment in hypermedia Democracy
Richard Thomas
2004-04-24 00:51:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:39:13 -0500, "Jeffraham Prestonian"
Post by Jeffraham Prestonian
Let me know what you come up with; I like
this line of discussion.
As an aside, if your a fan of FF quotes (particularly one who had an
input on the drafting of "intellectual property" legislation), you
might consider the following:

"It would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right
to inventors... It would be curious... if an idea, the fugitive
fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be
claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one
thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is
the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual
may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the
moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every
one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar
character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other
possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives
instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper
at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely
spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual
instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have
been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made
them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their
density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move and
have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive
appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of
property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising
from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may
produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the
will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from
anybody... The exclusive right to invention [is] given not of natural
right, but for the benefit of society." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac
McPherson, 1813. ME 13:333

Rich
1 of Gold
2004-04-24 14:55:50 UTC
Permalink
My question is, How do you know the ones who took the Christian music
were themselves Christian? (Was there a poll?)

I also agree that anything taken without permission is stealing - even
if the intent is to return it.

Copywrite infringement in this sense would be stealing.

The Golden One
Richard Thomas
2004-04-24 17:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by 1 of Gold
My question is, How do you know the ones who took the Christian music
were themselves Christian? (Was there a poll?)
I also agree that anything taken without permission is stealing - even
if the intent is to return it.
Copywrite infringement in this sense would be stealing.
In that definition though, so would it be if I took a picture of my
wife and your house, which you had designed yourself was in the
background. Also when Og saw Ug had pre-made spare spear heads and
carried them in a pouch allowing him to hunt on if he broke his spear
head and decided to do the same for himself, that was likewise
stealing. Or when you tell that joke you heard at work last week...

Our whole society is based on the free transfer of information and
we're damned if we need permission for every single piece. Special law
has been crafted to allow certain creators of information to control
how and when that information gets distributed. There are several
important distinctions between breaking these laws and traditional
stealing. Here are the more pertinent.

1)Nothing is directly taken from the content creator. if you photocopy
a book, a book has not disappeared from inventory of the author of the
book.

2)The transaction is not directly between the copyright infringer and
the holder of the copyright. I.e. if I steal your car, a car has
passed from your control into mine. If I copy my friend's tape of "The
Macarena", the original content creator has not been involved in any
way. Doubly so if my friend's copy was not an original copy in the
first place.

Note that I am not arguing against copyright law per-se here. I am
merely pointing out that it must be argued for or against based on
what it actually is. Pre-emptively labelling it "stealing" is
prejudicial to the argument. It assigns to "intellectual property" the
same properties and protections as real physical property when it is,
at its roots, an entirely different thing.

Rich
Post by 1 of Gold
The Golden One
Jim Garrett
2004-04-20 04:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
Copyright infringement is not stealing, it is copyright infringement.
You keep saying that like it's some sort of ageless wisdom, but if
someone burns a copy of a CD and ends up with a disc that did not
cause Vince Gill's bank account to increase by 2 cents, how is that
really different than stealing?

If someone used one of those check printing programs to create a
check with your name, address, and bank account number and they filled
it out for something just under the balance in your account, then
signed it and cashed it, I suppose you would insist that was forgery
and not theft?

As a practical matter, whether it's copyright infringement or
forgery, the perpetrator ends up with something through illegal means
that deprives someone else of their due.

I guess I fail to understand the significance of what you're saying.

Jim
Richard Thomas
2004-04-21 01:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Garrett
Post by Richard Thomas
Copyright infringement is not stealing, it is copyright infringement.
You keep saying that like it's some sort of ageless wisdom, but if
someone burns a copy of a CD and ends up with a disc that did not
cause Vince Gill's bank account to increase by 2 cents, how is that
really different than stealing?
Theft or stealing entails depriving the legitimate owner the use of
the stolen item.

Think. If copyright infringement really was theft, why would we need
separate laws against copyright infringement?
Post by Jim Garrett
If someone used one of those check printing programs to create a
check with your name, address, and bank account number and they filled
it out for something just under the balance in your account, then
signed it and cashed it, I suppose you would insist that was forgery
and not theft?
They have deprived me of the use of that money. Legally, it may even
rank as forgery rather than theft (I'm no expert on forgery but have
paid attention to copyright issues).

It's a red herring anyway. As much as you may consider copyright
infringement to be morally equivalent to theft (or not), it is not
theft and cannot be discussed properly if terms are confused.

In truth copyright is a much more complex issue than straightforward
theft because it is a monopoly on reproduction granted by the
government and does not particularly stem from any natural
circumstance (monkey see, monkey do is a law of nature after all).
Post by Jim Garrett
As a practical matter, whether it's copyright infringement or
forgery, the perpetrator ends up with something through illegal means
that deprives someone else of their due.
Of their potential due. And a due that is only provided by an explicit
act of government anyway.
Post by Jim Garrett
I guess I fail to understand the significance of what you're saying.
It's a different offence and so must be considered on different
grounds and with different arguments. Theft is a criminal matter,
copyright is a civil matter for starters.
Post by Jim Garrett
Jim
Rich
Richard Thomas
2004-04-21 01:45:24 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 04:26:25 GMT, Jim Garrett <jim-***@NSatt.net>
wrote:

This provides an interesting take on it...

http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/175

But technically, file sharing is not theft.

A number of years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court dealt with a man named
Dowling, who sold "pirated" Elvis Presley recordings, and was
prosecuted for the Interstate Transportation of Stolen Property.
The Supremes did not condone his actions, but did make it clear
that it was not "theft" -- but technically "infringement" of the
copyright of the Presley estate, and therefore copyright law, and
not anti-theft statutes, had to be invoked.

Rich
rayrat
2004-04-20 14:27:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Thomas
Post by rayrat
Thou shalt not steal.
Copyright infringement is not stealing, it is copyright infringement.
Rich
Post by rayrat
Ray
How do you reason that? If I wrote a song and am being paid a dime
royalty on every song sold, and you were copying the song for others
and not paying me my dimes, how is that not considered stealing?

Rayrat
Richard Thomas
2004-04-21 01:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by rayrat
Post by Richard Thomas
Post by rayrat
Thou shalt not steal.
Copyright infringement is not stealing, it is copyright infringement.
Rich
Post by rayrat
Ray
How do you reason that?
Because it isn't in the same way that speeding isn't rape.
Post by rayrat
If I wrote a song and am being paid a dime
royalty on every song sold, and you were copying the song for others
and not paying me my dimes, how is that not considered stealing?
Because it is copyright infringement and not stealing.
Post by rayrat
Rayrat
Rich
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...